sabotabby: raccoon anarchy symbol (socialism with a human face)
sabotabby ([personal profile] sabotabby) wrote2016-12-19 06:21 pm

Another fair and balanced post

I don't actually think it's World War III or the end of the world at the moment, so more ranting about the problem of balance in politics. Two positions I've taken, both in response to stupid comments by supposed centrists:

1. Trevor Noah would never invite an ISIS member onto his show to “get the other side’s perspective.” That’s why the liberal narrative of free speech is so ethically vacuous.

I don't remember the last time I encountered an ardent defender of the concept known as "free speech" who wasn't a raging racist. I'm not sure how the right managed to snatch that one out from under our noses, but like "libertarian," I don't think we're gonna get this one back. Sorry guys.

The reason why ISIS is not included in debates about free speech is because we're all sensible people and we know where that kind of discourse leads. Yeah, a certain percentage of people reading/watching/listening to an ISIS ideologue's opinion—let's be generous and say most people—are going to say, "wow, that guy's a real shithead, listen to him say shitty things, ugh." But a not-insignificant number are going to react in the opposite way—this fellow's saying something I've felt deep in my heart for a long time, and look, he's saying it publicly, it must be socially acceptable."

This is how the Alt Reich gained ascendancy. The media gave them a sympathetic narrative, stopped portraying them as fringe freaks not even worthy of an interview, reported on their hairstyles and suits, demanded that the liberal elite sympathize with their plights. (Can you imagine a similar discourse around ISIS? Even though for the average fighter—not the ideologues—there may be a much more compelling reason, such as starvation, forcing their hand?)

An ethically consistent liberal or centrist would fight as valiantly for the rights of terrorists to be heard as it does for the rights of racist white dudes to spout off hate speech, but there is no ethical consistency in liberalism or centrism.


2. The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing people who don't know very much about politics that the horseshoe theory has any sort of intellectual merit.

I was halfheartedly debating with a self-described centrist who was insisting that fascism could be either a right- or left-wing ideology, and that neo-liberalism was a left-wing ideology. I guess 227 years of political history, fought for and bled for by countless Very Smart People, was just not good enough for this fellow, who like so many on the internet, believes that a 15-second Google search qualifies him as a political scientist. (To be fair, I'm not even sure he did that.) The horseshoe theory is referenced commonly amongst the walking Dunning-Kruger effects that inhabit certain corners of the internet, and I'm sick to death of it.

There are, of course, common features in the extreme left and the extreme right. However, all of these commonalities can just as easily describe those in the centre (not to mention that the centre is a rightward-drifting moving target). Probably more so—anecdotally, the most authoritarian types I've encountered in meatspace described themselves as centrists. A conservative may have some moral convictions, even if I disagree with them; a centrist is merely politically and ethically avoidant. It is the perverted sense of balance that led to the above problem wherein the Alt Reich were given a platform rather than being sent scuttling back to the sewers where they belong.

[identity profile] daria234.livejournal.com 2016-12-19 11:58 pm (UTC)(link)
Well said!

[identity profile] eyelid.livejournal.com 2016-12-20 02:10 am (UTC)(link)
The Trevor Noah argument has nothing to do with free speech

Free speech just means the government can't interfere with speech.

It doesn't mean Trevor Noah has to HOST it.

Wtf argh this is not complicated

[identity profile] springheel-jack.livejournal.com 2016-12-21 06:25 am (UTC)(link)
I've always been a little bemused to see liberals, or other people on the left, happily supporting the idea that a right to speech has no positive aspect. "Free speech doesn't protect you from ostracism or economic retaliation, it just keeps you from going to jail" isn't a motto that is conducive to getting leftward ideas Out There.

[identity profile] mycrazyhair.livejournal.com 2016-12-20 03:19 am (UTC)(link)
I read a great article, oh, about twenty years ago. The thesis was that the only thing liberalism cannot (and should not) tolerate is intolerance.

[identity profile] browngirl.livejournal.com 2016-12-20 05:36 am (UTC)(link)
*reads and takes notes*

[identity profile] kingtycoon.livejournal.com 2016-12-20 05:50 pm (UTC)(link)
This is all very well said. Nice work.

[identity profile] kingtycoon.livejournal.com 2016-12-20 06:13 pm (UTC)(link)
This is all very well said. Nice work.

[identity profile] smhwpf.livejournal.com 2016-12-20 07:22 pm (UTC)(link)
I agree with this mostly, certainly on the whole way the Alt Reich (great term) has hijacked the concept of Freezed Peach to massively further their agenda, but I'm not ready to give up on the concept just yet. It's just too important, there are too many people going to jail and worse around the world for genuinely demanding and exercising their right to free speech, and we are going to be needing it really badly ourselves in the US and Europe. (Canada too? Not as bad, but still issues). Like, the attack on BDS, which I think is at its worst in France, we need to defend that on free speech grounds. But beyond that, freedom to speak out against Trump and the fascists and their allies.

Maybe there's other terms we can use to some extent, freedom to oppose, freedom to protest, freedom of assembly, organization, of the press, etc. But freedom of speech needs to be in there somewhere.

I have a feeling that we may be hearing rather less from the Alt Reich and similar about freezed peach in the coming years, because it will have served its purpose for them, they will be feeling increasingly less challenged in gaining access to platforms.

But, like so much else, there's such a big question of how we present this case, how we tell the story, which is something that in recent years the right has been so much better at doing than the left. I suspect that the phrase "No platform" is a gigantic own goal. Not the concept of denying a platform to fascists, but the language. I don't know what would work better. An anti-harassment policy? I don't know. I would make a poor propagandist.

An ethically consistent liberal or centrist would fight as valiantly for the rights of terrorists to be heard as it does for the rights of racist white dudes to spout off hate speech, but there is no ethical consistency in liberalism or centrism.

Amen to this.

[identity profile] springheel-jack.livejournal.com 2016-12-21 06:28 am (UTC)(link)
You know the whole thing has taken a weird turn when universities - universities! - are hosting Milo Yiannopoulos, who openly singles out and threatens the safety of specific students attending those universities. How anyone could think that can be allowed...well, it's baffling.

[identity profile] springheel-jack.livejournal.com 2016-12-21 05:13 pm (UTC)(link)
But the liability exposure! If a trans student gets assaulted after a Milo threatfest.... I'm constantly amazed by how powerful the ideological blinkers are.
subbes: An excerpt from Cat & Girl. A teacher says "Follow your dreams," to which Girl responds "my dream leads to scurvy." (My Dream Leads To Scurvy)

[personal profile] subbes 2016-12-23 01:30 am (UTC)(link)
> The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing people who don't know very much about politics that the horseshoe theory has any sort of intellectual merit