sabotabby: (books!)
[personal profile] sabotabby
I normally don't just post a link but I need everyone to read the Magneto essay that's going around so we can talk about how great it is. It's one of the best pieces of literary analysis I've seen in a good long time.

The Judgment of Magneto

Date: 2024-04-25 11:31 am (UTC)
dewline: "Truth is still real" (anti-fascism)
From: [personal profile] dewline
That character's depictions have been all over the map across the decades, yes, and the editorial constraints as described were and remain real. The essay is on-target, yes.

Date: 2024-04-25 12:10 pm (UTC)
frandroid: A key enters the map of Palestine (Default)
From: [personal profile] frandroid
> “Never Again,” popularized in English by ... Meir Kahane

🤯

Date: 2024-04-25 03:08 pm (UTC)
xturtle: (Default)
From: [personal profile] xturtle
That is an excellent analysis. I'm gonna have to reread it and follow all the links, because there's a lot of both comics and history in there that I've missed.

Date: 2024-04-25 04:06 pm (UTC)
selki: (Default)
From: [personal profile] selki
That's a great article. I started reading X-Men a little before Kitty joined the team, and I remember when Magneto held her limp body and realized he'd nearly killed a teenage Jewish girl, and was aghast. I got it then. I didn't follow X-Men after all the time loops exhausted me, so I hadn't kept up with all his character changes. The article discussions of Israel and Magneto's changing attitudes (and recursions), sometimes mirroring each other and sometimes not, is well worth reading. Thanks for the link!
Here (your journal in general, I think) via lcohen.

Date: 2024-04-25 04:16 pm (UTC)
moon_custafer: neon cat mask (Default)
From: [personal profile] moon_custafer
I probably ought to show this to Andrew, who is a long-time comics fan and has also recently begun watching the resurrected X-Men animated show (and being the former, he can tell which comic-book storylines the show is incorporating).

Date: 2024-04-26 09:19 am (UTC)
greylock: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greylock
As a former X-men fan (I'd stopped when the time Liefeld/Lee arrived), and so some of these plots are after my time (some not), if you do decide to watch one, episode five hits hard, and I am not even sure you need to be familiar with all the characters.

Date: 2024-04-25 04:26 pm (UTC)
dissectionist: A digital artwork of a biomechanical horse, head and shoulder only. It’s done in shades of grey and black and there are alien-like spines and rib-like structures over its body. (Default)
From: [personal profile] dissectionist
I have zero interest in Marvel or comics, but this was fascinating even to me. The writer makes the point more clearly later on, but when I came across the reference early in to “Never again for Jews”, it hit hard because I’ve been so puzzled by that. My Jewish friends very clearly see it as “Never again for anyone,” so that’s what I believed “never again” meant in general. As a result, I’ve been baffled how others can say (and clearly mean) “never again” while simultaneously supporting genocide. It wasn’t until I read that in this essay that I suddenly understood that “never again” can have multiple endings.

Date: 2024-04-25 10:13 pm (UTC)
dissectionist: A digital artwork of a biomechanical horse, head and shoulder only. It’s done in shades of grey and black and there are alien-like spines and rib-like structures over its body. (Default)
From: [personal profile] dissectionist
I was reading the JDL’s Wikipedia (as the JDL was founded by Kahane) and it goes into more detail there that the slogan was originally created by Jews in the Warsaw ghetto during the Holocaust. It was then coopted by Kahane, who changed the meaning from “we will fight to never again have a Holocaust” to “we will never again be lulled into a false sense of trust [for non-Jews].”

So it wasn’t his originally, but he coopted and popularized it. Thankfully most people still ascribe its original meaning to it, rather than his nationalist version.

Date: 2024-04-26 01:47 am (UTC)
curgoth: (Default)
From: [personal profile] curgoth
Yes! I have been sending this essay around to comics nerds. If you want more like this, the Cerebro podcast when Connor has Spencer Ackerman on as a guest gets into this kind of thing. With other guests, it gets rather more silly.

Date: 2024-04-26 09:30 am (UTC)
greylock: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greylock
As someone who has Uncanny X-Men 200 around, let me look at this...
*puts on glasses*
Defector? The refugees of the old Gawker sports blog?

In it, Marvel’s master of magnetism, who is also the company’s most famous Jewish character

Ben Grimm erasure!

If the X-Men can be read as crypto-Jews

Not by design, but I feel like every generation has a group that claims the X-men as allegory. That said, I am sure that Claremont was partially Jewish seems news to me.

Admittedly, Meir Kahane seems new to me.

This is actually an interesting essay - and I don't often say that.

Date: 2024-04-26 10:53 am (UTC)
greylock: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greylock
IMO Magneto is more famous than Ben Grimm.

Now. I reckon pre-2000s it was different. But I had to argue.

Meir Kahane was a real piece of shit, so if you want to be deeply horrified, read up on him.

I love to be horrified!

Date: 2024-04-26 02:11 pm (UTC)
curgoth: (Default)
From: [personal profile] curgoth
IMO, the strength and weakness of The Mutant Metaphor is that it works for many disenfranchised groups. I think X-Men is at its best when it both leans into the metaphor while *also* exploring actual diversity - so, literal Jewishness, actual queer mutants, etc. Intersectionality means having your cake and eating it too, much like Magneto eating scenery.

Looked at as a whole, Claremont's X-Men run is deeply concerned with exploring the Holocaust and it's aftermath, much in the same way that nuclear war and The Bomb is a major thread in Grant Morrison's work.

(Also, Dark Phoenix is about Kabballah)

Maybe when the MCU Fantastic Four movie comes out, Aunt Petunia's ever-lovin' blue-eyed boy will get the respect he deserves?

Date: 2024-04-26 02:32 pm (UTC)
greylock: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greylock
IMO, the strength and weakness of The Mutant Metaphor is that it works for many disenfranchised groups

I can't disagree. I think I liked X-Men as outsiders because... I Was A Teenage Outsider.
I've seen them used as a metaphor for most movements, but not Jewishness (that said I will pull out one of my favourite New Mutant issues here: Kitty's "We Were Only Foolin'" speech, so it all works).

(Also, Dark Phoenix is about Kabballah)

I have somehow never read the Dark Phoenix saga completely, and my knowledge of the Kabballah is limited, but I am actually surprised.


Maybe when the MCU Fantastic Four movie comes out, Aunt Petunia's ever-lovin' blue-eyed boy will get the respect he deserves?


I am not sure he can get any respect. As soon as he wins, he loses. Really, if Ben had retired in Secret Wars, the character would have been better served. Comics allows only limited evolution.

Date: 2024-04-26 02:46 pm (UTC)
curgoth: (Default)
From: [personal profile] curgoth
Oof, yeah, I read that issue of New Mutants when it came out and it left *marks* on my psyche.

Claremont was also involved with the Wiccan scene in New York in the 70s/80s, up to being a guest at a Wiccan convention, so it's another one of those big influences that isn't immediately obvious.

Date: 2024-04-26 02:50 pm (UTC)
greylock: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greylock
Fetish scene: Obvious.
Wiccan scene: not even remotely obvious.

But I know Marvel in that age was wild.

Date: 2024-04-28 04:11 am (UTC)
frenzy: (Default)
From: [personal profile] frenzy
Im only a causual xmen fan, but really enjoyed this. thanks for sharing!

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